Associate Advice from the Corner Office: Part III
So far, in the “Associate Advice from the Corner Office” series, we’ve heard from partners at Kilpatrick Stockton and Ropes & Gray (here) about the dos and don’ts of associate life. But what does it take to thrive at Cadwalader, the firm with some of the most-reported recent associate layoffs to-date?
For this week’s “Associate Advice” column, we spoke to Cadwalader’s Paul Mourning, who began at the firm as a summer and now chairs its hiring committee. As for the layoffs, Mourning (Dartmouth, ‘80; UVA law, ‘83) told us: “Immediately after the announcements were made, I sent a letter via e-mail to all of our incoming summers and third-years who have offers, assuring them that they would have jobs. And frankly, one of the first things I’ll tell [the summers] when I greet them on the 19th is that we expect to hire all of them out of the program, subject to someone failing in terms of performance.”
How not to fail in terms of performance? Here’s Mourning’s advice:
Cater to the boss: Partners (and senior associates) can be quirky, but it’s the associate’s job to adapt. “Get to know the habits of the people with whom you’re going to be working,” says Mourning. “Things as simple as how they like [work] presented, whether they like oral reports or like to see it in writing.” Also, says Mourning, be familiar with their work schedules; know whether you’re working with people who start early or stay late.
Stick your neck out: “Some people tend to couch in their office and wait for the phone to ring,” says Mourning. “Other people go out and try to be more proactive in the types of assignments they’re getting. For some people, that’s a natural; for others, that means getting out of your comfort zone. What I mean by that is, with so many things going on in a big firm, stick your neck out and look for experiences that you might feel you don’t have any relevant background in. Ultimately, people are going to specialize. But early on, get whatever experience you can.”
Don’t care about making partner? Don’t worry about it: Mourning says that today’s associates tend to focus on what they’re doing — today – and where that’s leading them. “It’s not, ‘I’m going to be here for nine years so I’m going to do whatever the firm requires in order to become a partner,’” he says. Mourning says associates don’t necessarily come in anymore with the goal of becoming partner. “I don’t know if it’s documented, but I think that the expectation for people coming out of school today is that they’re going to hold many jobs. From the firm’s perspective, we want the person who’s looking long term, but “long term” doesn’t have to be 10 years, it could be five years. We want to see someone who’s enthusiastic.”
This advice is so far from being useful.
ps: Guess who’s FIRSTY, Y’ALL?!
Not sure who’s more lame: the poster at 3:40 or Mourning’s advice.
Both are pretty lame, although Mourning was at least trying to do something useful…
Shouldn’t this be common sense? If you want to be successful, go out and get it… Don’t just sit in the office. Enough said?
At least firsty is posting first.
This post isn’t good advice for summer associates.
The goal of a summer is simply to get a permanent offer at the end of the summer in the department of their preference. Unless they want to get into a niche department (e.g., trust and estates, tax, labor, etc), in which positions can be few, summers are generally assured of job offers provided they don’t prove themselves to be incredibly stupid or annoying. So the goal for a summer associates is not to screw up horribly or to be terribly annoying. In fact, because a summer is given no responsibility (their work is being checked by somebody), it’s pretty hard to screw anything up, so it’s mainly about not being offensive or annoying. If a summer is polite and speaks and writes semi-competently, he or she will get an offer.
Only after beginning work as a 1st year associate does a lawyer have to worry about catering to the boss or whatever.
Of course, the best advice is not accept an offer from Cadwalder.
I’m going with 3:40.
Wonder what Obama thinks.
Two friends of mine were associates in capital markets at CWT. They lasted 8 and 18 months repsectively. Apparently the hours were “atrocious,” with regular all-nighters. They did not like the firm. On the other hand they shouldn’t complain as they both went to TTT schools. CWT is one of the only supposed White shoe form that hires TTT grads, and they have plenty of turnover.
They have since moved with many other associates to greener Biglaw pastures. This was before the lay offs.
1) Remember to tie your shoelaces in the morning;
2) Do not work at CWT unless it is your only Biglaw option;
3) if you have to work there, get some experience and then lateral out sharpish.
I am not sure I agree with the “live in the moment” advice. Isn’t that just another way of the firm saying “we will use you[r ‘enthusiasm’] and spit you out after five years. We aren’t really thinking long term and neither should you?”
I agree that you don’t need to gun for partner when you walk in the door, but putting your head down and working really hard can land you as a counsel position or shown the door as a sixth year or so. You have to be strategic, because if you aren’t the person in the next office over will be.
CWT = Truly Third Tier Toilet = TTTT. I pity any one summering there - I strongly recommend that any CWT summer associates agressively interviwew for other jobs duringn 3L OCI.
Whatever you think of CWT, Paul Mourning is a genuinely decent guy. And like all big firms, CWT varies a lot by department and who you work for. I guess I’m just asking for a grain of salt to go with the knee-jerk reactions any mention of CWT engenders.
You young, ignorant know-it-alls sure think you have Biglaw figured out. But you don’t know enough to realize that all Biglaw shops are the same. I am sure CWT has bad departments, as do all firms. If you want to be in Cap Markets dept., you are going to work a ton of hours, that is simply the nature of the beast. It sounds like your friends were not up to the task (and you probably aren’t either 4:40).
I summered at CWT and ended up not accepting an offer. However, Mourning is a great guy who cares about his summer recruits. His advice should not be taken lightly.
Our profession now consists of punks who believe a degree makes them better than everyone else. Does anyone really wonder why lawyers are so hated?
All biglaws are the same, but some are more of the same than others. Nearly everyone I knew from law school went to a biglaw shop, and no one had as universally bad an experience as those who went to CWT. Paul Mourning is one of the only nice things that firm has to offer (hey, the views are nice); if you can only find the big bucks there, then by all means, make your way to WFC - but I can assure you, the Cadwalajeer is neither unjustified nor unique.
“Cater to the boss”!? - That’s just a partner’s way of saying kiss my ass early and often and never question my authority. Good managers in other professions respect underlings with their own spines. This is why any associate with self-respect leaves Godforsaken BigLaw firms within 3 years.
I’m at LittleLaw in LittleCity USA and I think the advice about seeking out work is right on. I started here in January and didn’t realize I needed to go around and ask for work–I thought they’d all call me since they seemed so anxious to make the hire.
From the firm’s perspective, we want the person who’s looking long term, but “long term” doesn’t have to be 10 years, it could be five years. We want to see someone who’s enthusiastic.”
.
Yeah, try expressing that in an interview and see how far it gets you.
“Enthusiastic” is code for “unappreciated workhorse who will never get close to equity, name partner or either.” Another pitiful post by Slater.
I always wondered what TTT stood for…
I find any argument to restrict foreign law firms from entering the Indian legal market quite absurd for a number of reasons.
1. Reciprocity: Yes, there does seem to be an issue reciprocity arising since Indian lawyers would have to pass a qualifying exams(QLTT or Bar exams) , work permit etc etc and other EU laws which mandate that you must show that a local is not qualified for a similar job. BUT let’s face it India shouldn’t expect them to relax the QLTT because they don’t have a qualifying test for their own law graduates in the first place!! Any attempt to put in place a requirement for foreigners only on the basis that they subject foreigners to tests is downright discriminatory in itself to begin with. One can only compare between ‘like’ items and not ‘unlike’ items. Any law graduate in India can practice and work without any such test and the quality of law schools except a dozen is really pathetic whereas the situation in UK and the US is exponentially better.
2. Hypocrisy: I know hundreds of lawyers in India who are severely underpaid for their efforts. The argument about allowing the ‘indigenous legal market’ to develop is being put forth by firms like Amarchand Mangaldass who wan to maintain an oligopoly in the market. They perpetrate the same things which they complain the foreign law firms will eventually do. They are competing against other miniscule law firms in India which ahrdly have the resources to match theirs. So their argument is very hypocritical. MANTRA TODAY IS: Perform or Perish! If you ask self-respecting associates in India they would unanimously agree to open the markets.
3. Benefits: Lastly the benefits accruing are manifold and manifest in foresight. The CLIENTS would benefit from greater expertise(foreign lawyers who have advised on more complex and larger transactions)HARMONISATION of transactions as there are a large number of pointless intermediaries which are eliminated resulting in lower costs and smoother flow of information. Client Satisfaction would be increased due to faster servicing, more efficient delivery and lower costs. Employee morale would be higher due to better salaries, better treatment and oppurtunities to go work abroad(in different branches) on newer deals resulting in higher productivity. Such a scenario adds to the prestige of India as an attractive place to do business and thus spikes up government revenues.
END RESULT: EVERYONE benefits when the marketss open up.
