There’s the practical leaving-behind — some stuff just gets harder to do — and then there’s also the psychological leaving-behind. I find (to my own sadness) I barely talk to the woman who I’ve long thought of as my best friend now that I have kids and she doesn’t. I don’t think it’s that either of us thinks the other person’s life is boring or stupid, it’s just that we simply don’t have as much to say to each other anymore. If I have some kid issue to discuss, I’m much more likely to call a friend with kids (it doesn’t help that she wants kids and apparently can’t have them; I worry she’ll be hurt by the stories a bit too). And I suppose if she wants to talk about the great new restaurant she discovered in Prague, she might want to do it with someone who has some chance of actually eating there in the next 14 years.

I do think that the ‘child-free’ think life changes much more than it does after children.

Having a child doesn’t change who you are, fundamentally. You just have to be more organised. Yes, a lot of spontananity does go out the window. As does, maybe the frequency of child-free, adult activies. That doesn’t mean they go away entirely.

I have ‘free and single’ friends in their 20s, friends in their 50s with grown up kids and friends my own age with babies and toddlers running around.

It makes for a very boring life to only hang out with people who have the exact same personal life as yourself.

Ever since we had Andrew, I’m the one that feels left out in regards to my friends with no kids. Their life continued on without me. There are so many things we used to do together that I am on available for now. As a result, my daily or 3x per week calls turned out to weekly update calls, an occasional house visit to see our son. It’s changed quite a bit. When I hear my friends talk about stuff they did, that I used to do..but can’t now…I feel left out.
It was an adjustment for me..but I am much happier being a parent. This is what I’ve wanted for soo long, I just have to sometimes remind myself of that.

Boston Lawyer, keep in touch with your friend. Your kids won’t be around forever, and friendships change over time. I think some patience and awareness of that may help all of us!

I have many female friends from college who are now raising families and have moved all over the U.S. I like to think we all understand that family can be consuming, and that we still miss and love each other even though we don’t talk as often (perhaps only through Xmas cards). It’s my hope that when my kids are older that I can spend the time and energy necessary to reinvest in these friends and get to know them again.

Is that too hopeful?

I have a couple single friends also, but none locally. Neither is married or has been married as yet. If we get together, we may talk about work (I am working full-time) or get nostalgic over the old days.

I’ve been in your shoes. I had kids in my twenties; everyone else in my crowd waited until their late 30s+. It took some time, but as the baby gets more mobile you make new friends and reconnect with the old ones. The infant stage is the loneliest in many ways since you’re so bound by their needs and schedule. Even if you add more kids the oldest ones are moving and doing so it’s still more social and you already have a sitter network.

I am at an age (25) where the opposite is true, friends who are having kids are more left out of the loop. I’m sure at some point the tides will change, but I think good friendships can be like marriage, sometimes you need to work hard to stay close, schedule a “date night.”

I have a couple of friends who don’t have kids yet and it is hard to spend time with them - especially since one of them is going through fertility treatments, so it’s hard for us to talk about my life because so much of what I do now is baby-oriented. But I don’t have many friends anyway - only a few good ones, and they are all scattered around the country, so I barely get to catch up with them anyway.

I agree that sometimes friendships need a lot of work on both sides to stay strong. I have other friends where we may not talk for months but then when we finally do it’s like not a day has passed. It really all depends on the friend. I have some friends who seem to understand that I have more restrictions now that I have a baby, I have other friends who seem really resentful at the loss of flexibility on my end. But, I don’t think it’s the baby that really changes these relationships. People are who they are - before and after the arrival of a baby - I think we just see each other in a different light.

I have some friends with kids/some without (I have none). The biggest challenge is knowing “when” to call, especially in the early days when schedule is an oxymoron and some babies sleep though anything and some don’t. I know that I have to make an effort, because at the heart of it, these are still people I value.

I feel most left behind at the holidays when schedules are (necessarily) structured around kid needs (4 on my side, 1 on BF’s side). I would love to be asked my thoughts, even if they are overruled. ;-)

I had kids in my early 20’s, and definitely felt “left out”, as I was raising my family while my friends were out “having fun”; As my kids got older, it was definitely easier to join in on things, but I found I really didn’t want to-I much preferred being with my kids, and I don’t think I missed much-and thye went on wothout me.Those few who were true friends, we managed to have a relationship, though it did change a bit to acommodate my family. Now, almost 20 years later, I am starting the process again, having just had a new baby-just at the time most of my friends, co-workers, and acquaintances are having kids, so I am again re-defining relationships, both old and new. It definitely keeps life intersting-my child free friends get to hear about the issues I deal with, and I get to listen to thier issues-it is nice to get a variety of life experiences/stages from everyone in your life, and I think the child free appreciate that, not resent it. That is if they really care about you in the first place.

It can be tricky, and can often depend on the reason the friend has no kids. Two of my closest friends have no kids but aren’t the least bit bitter about it (though I do think they are wistful about it), and I still talk to them often and see them annually (they live in different states). We have plenty to talk about other than kids, and if I have kid issues to discuss, they have great insight and interest. They are pseudo aunt and uncle to my kids as well, and have taken an enormous interest in the kids and in our family’s life. I had a third close friend w/o kids but I think she was bitter about not having kids and not being married. It was painfully obvious she wanted nothing to do with my kids and wanted to hear nothing about them. The amount of censoring our talks and visits took on my part, to spare her feelings, became too much. Also, it didn’t seem quite “real” to spend an entire dinner talking about everything under the sun but purposefully not mentioning my four kids, even for one sentence! My kids are a huge part of my life and happiness, and the thought that she didn’t want ANYTHING to do with them made me feel like perhaps she was not the best friend.

This happened to me a few years back when those having kids kind of disappeared into the parenting world of schedules, and many moved from NYC into the ‘burbs which further complicated seeing them. I was disappointed to lose them but recognized that hanging with other parents must be alot easier for them. Now that we’re expecting I am trying to figure out how to avoid this. As far as our local friends, most are married but hardly any have kids or are planning any soon. I want to work hard to keep them in my life and not bore them with details of naps and diaper changes. I’m still going to be me (I hope).

So those of you with fertility problems (and my heart goes out to you) — do you want to hear the kid stories or no? It is mean to keep talking about how great it is to have kids to you (which is what most of my kid stories are, fortunately) or insulting to assume that it may hurt you too much to hear them?

We certainly “left behind” some friends after DD was born. They had no real understanding of what babies are like, and couldn’t understand why we didn’t want to leave the baby and go out and watch football for hours with them instead, or couldn’t bring the baby with us (she has never really been able to sleep anywhere except her own bed since she was 4 months old). It was a bit sad, but between jobs, baby and keeping time for each other, it was relatively easy to do. Sorry, but raising the next generation was more important than getting drunk with mates.

I think I have felt left behind. I have friends that are single and child-free that like to socialize as do I. My DH is more of a homebody who on occassion will encourage me to attend their social functions while he stays home with our son. Like Elizabeth, we have friends with kids from young to grown. I found it harder when I was younger when I had no children and my friends were starting out. It was harder to meet up after work for drinks, or to have a night out on the town.
But I think your life adjusts and accept the facts.

What a timely post! I just attended a wedding this weekend where the vast majority of my friends either have very young children or are pregnant. My husband and I are on the fence about whether we want to have kids at all, but we’re working hard to keep the friendships going. We know that if we choose to remain child-free the feeling of isolation will only increase, but we also are unwilling to bring a baby into the world just so that we will fit in (not because we truly want to be parents.)

So far, a few things have helped up keep in touch with our friends who are now parents:
1) We go to them. Our apartment is not baby-proofed and many folks have moved out of the city. This means constant expenses for renting cars, but it’s worth it. Going to a restaurant with a toddler can be miserable and embarrassing to non-parents. It’s much easier to hang out in the backyard with some beers, bbq, and if need be, the “baby-jail” (playpen)
2) We play with the kids and bring them small gifts, but we don’t try to insert ourselves too much. The reality is that I don’t enjoy holding babies, and that we don’t want to babysit unless there is a real need/emergency. This may sound counter-intuitive, but I’ve been told by some friends that they appreciate that I am there for THEM and that it isn’t all about the baby. It is possible to be respectful and enthusiastic about the new addition without faking an interest in little jr’s poo color.
3) We see people less often for sure, but take more time in planning big events– some with and some without the kids. We may only see our friends with kids a few times a year, but they are quality times. For example, a weekend at a lakehouse or a special party (with months of advance notice for babysitter arranging)

Finally, my husband and I focus on the things that matter to us most right now– our careers, travel, and each other. That may not sound like a great way to stay friends with new parents, but if you keep life moving forward you aren’t “left behind” -you’re just on a different path…. and we always have lots of good stories for the previously mentioned backyard bbq’s!

I used to run in a crowd here that was very mommy-focused, but I never fit in (I didn’t have kids). I had no other friends in the area, though, so it was about as good as I had. Then I had my daughter, and while I fit in better to the group, I somehow met a lot more other people who didn’t have kids, with whom I had much more in common. I have very few “mommy” friends and a lot of single/couple friends. I love it. With sufficient notice, we can meet up for dinner or after work (and I’m not always the one with the least flexible schedule). My friends like to come over and play with my kids for a couple hours while we catch up on news. I think one thing that has helped me relate to friends without kids is that I remained at work (not meaning to start a mommy war), so I had something in my life that people without kids intuitively “get”. All my childfree friends work, and I think for people without kids, there’s an air of “what do you do all day” if you aren’t working outside the home yourself. They don’t get my daycare woes, and I don’t talk to them about poop, but we still have a lot to talk about. I work, and I read books, and watch television. I don’t go out to movies much, but I can still manage that about once every couple months. Most of my friends, with kids or without, do many of the same things.

We make an effort, but as a couple, we never had tons and tons of friends. We usually got together with the same 3 or 4 people every weekend. Now those people, 2 with kids, 2 without we see a little less often, but we make a point to get a babysitter every month so we can meet for a grown up night out, we go to each others’ houses for bbqs, parties etc sometimes with kids, sometimes without. We have a few other close friends who are out of state and we work hard to get together with them every summer when they’re home visiting family. Again,they come into our kid family and do all family activities, but we always get a babysitter for a night or two out for the grown ups. I find the only people I can’t abide are the inflexible - those who think kids are always a nuisance and those who tote their kids everywhere regardless of appropriateness or inconvenience to others. Luckily,none of our friends are in that category.

DopeyMummy describes our situation. Our friends are busy living their lives and don’t understand the demands of parenting. Also, I know some of my women friends really wanted kids–but their husbands didn’t. Seeing my kids reminds them of what they’re missing, so they avoid us altogether.

I also am interested to hear how others have handled the prickly situation of infertile or otherwise unhapplily childless friends. Although my other freiends and I still invite them to the baby showers, baby birthday parties, large backyard bbqs,etc, they often choose not to go. This is not surprising; when my husband and I were trying to get pregnant (even though it was only for 7 mo) we didn’t always feel like being surrounded by tons of toddlers.

My solution is to invite them to low-key, more personal events such as going for a walk or a dinner at my home, which would allow us to really talk about all sorts of topics without the kids being the primary focus. This way, I still get to see my friends, with less pressure.

“Sorry, but raising the next generation was more important than getting drunk with mates.”

And when the kids have all grown up and moved away and your spouse has passed on (for women chances are you are going to be spending 10+ years alone) then what?

We have talked about parents who need to be best friends with their children - and I see part of that unhealthy dynamic being driven by parents who don’t have their own friends. I think as a social animal people need friends and when they don’t have them it can lead to unhealthy relationships with spouses and children.

This is finally a “family” post that I can fit right into. As most of you know, I’m married, and was married “young” for my generation (at 24). Most of my friends are single to mingle. I have 2 sets of married friends, and a few with children. For a long time, we were the only married couple. And it was hard. Friends left me because I could no longer hang out because I was now married. They believed that my DH was now my entire world. I had no one to talk to about this, as no one was married. So, I struggled to show my single friends that just because I was married, I wasn’t dead. Now, some are having children, and some are discussing children. My DH and I discuss but come to the same conclusion - it’s not going to happen any time soon. Now, I’m starting to feel left out again. I’m also starting to feel that biological clock ticking because babies are the hot topic. Is there anyone else feeling like that? I’m young (27), and now that some friends are starting to talk about families, I get that bang of guilt and depression that things are much more difficult for me in that department. I almost feel guilty for choosing school over a family. Anyone here can relate, I’d love some advise on how to get through this.

what kind of friendship is it if you just drop each other when a child comes into the picture. both of my very good friends are anti-kid. If I have kids I would want my kids to know them and to also have conversations that did not revolve around my kid.
Of course, I have no children so maybe I will ditch my friends. The thought that I would be so fickle makes me feel like crap.

I totally agree with you about the unhealthy dynamic some parents have. I see it in my MIL (lost now her sons have their own families and FIL died, she just can’t fill her days), and SIL (whose house is exclusively PACKED with photos of her 3 children, with 2 of whom she no longer has a friendly relationship). I’ve never really been the sort of person who has formed many or particularly strong friendships, but I really love my job and have many other pursuits for which I don’t have time (grrr). Just because many of us don’t have time for all these things at this moment in our lives, and don’t have many friends, doesn’t necessarily make someone a social outcast. I have no intention of viewing my life’s accomplishments solely in terms of those of my offspring, it’s just one of several (I hope). Boozing up with mates doesn’t really count.

Just to clarify, I’m not unhappy in my life. I attend all birthday parties, baby showers, wedding showers, etc with much excitement. My friends and family have chosen these wonderful gifts, and I want to be there to celebrate. But I seem to come home with the notion I’m a large disappointment because I haven’t chosen to start a family yet.

I’ve been in both the position of being “left behind” (by friends who all have kids) and “leaving” people behind (a different group of friends who are all single, while I’m married). However, I do think it’s important to work to maintain those relationships on both sides and to appreciate each other for who we still are. As someone mentioned, while things may have changed in our lives, we are still the same people and (for the most part) can still appreciate each other for the common interests that we still share. BostonLawyer mentioned that she might not want to hear about her friend’s travels to Prague, while I say, bring it on! Sure, she may not have the opportunity to vist that restaurant in Prague (or even want to…) but can’t she enjoy hearing about a trip that her friend enjoyed?? We’re always going to be around people who are in different circumstances or stages than us, but that doesn’t mean we can’t be friends!!

I’ve felt like Gay Dad sometimes, and am also ultimately very happy with my choice to have a family. Some of my friends without kids just don’t invite us to things anymore- partly because we truly can’t make it to most things (especially if it’s last minute) they do invite us to. I think that leads some to believe we don’t WANT to, so they stop asking. In actuality, if it fits in the schedule, and we can find a babysitter, we’re often looking for plans. DD goes to sleep at 6:30, so evening outings don’t entail time away from her. We do like to do things earlier than we used to, and end the evenings earlier than my friends without kids, so that sometimes is a problem. Living in westchester, 9:00 Friday dinner reservations in the city just don’t work anymore. That being said, I actually find it easier sometimes to maintain friendships with my friends with no kids who work than some of my friends who are SAHMs and form tight bonds with other SAHMs they see frequently.
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A Son, I think you’re reading too much into the comment you quote. My friends who don’t have kids, especially those who are single, just drink a LOT more than I do on a given Thurs/weekend night now. I don’t have the luxury of sleeping past 6:30 on Sat. morning. So yes, some of my friendships have shifted, and I’m less close to some of my friends without children. That doesn’t mean we don’t have friends. We’ve grown more close to friends with young kids who also enjoy casual Fri. / Sat. night meals at someone’s house who lives nearby, with or without a few toddlers- it’s just easier. It’s what we did Sat. night and the Fri. of the weekend before- so much fun.

I am struggling with this topic of friendship. Not so much friends with or without kids. My closest friends do not have children. But how is friendship defined? Maybe because I am not American I find that what most Americans describe as friends are acquaintances to me. Isn’t there a difference between someone you talk to about kid- or work-related topics and arrange to see a few times a year and someone you can talk to about how you feel (and even talk to when you don’t feel so well) and you can drop by their house unannounced without having to ‘arrange’ things? Maybe my expectations are all wrong. People are so busy in this country and constantly on the run doing things. Also it takes a very long to make real friends.

When I had a baby it wasn’t that I made myself unavailable, but instead a lot of our friends revealed themselves to be very anti-kid. We were unceremoniously “dumped” by more than one childless friend. In my experience, your real friends stay with you until they have kids of their own.

I sympathize with your situation–my high school friends all had kids long before I did. But it turned out that we were each dealing with different work and home situations. It might help you to know that you still have a decade of really good childbearing years in front of you–does that quiet the ticking clock?

Given your other considerable obligations of working and school, it seems that you have carefully thought through the issues–having a baby is an incredible time/financial committment. You can only do what is best for you, not what is best for your girlfriends or classmates.

I have a handful of true friends. I have known these people for over a decade. I cry to them, complain to them, and even though they don’t live in RI with me, they give me virtual/phone hugs when I need them. I actually will run home to NJ to see one of them when things are really bad.
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I also have friends who I met 2 years ago when I moved. I can count on them, talk with them about almost anything, but have to explain a lot because the friendship is new. But I see them more, so the friendship is developing faster than I thought. Hopefully these will be lifelong like the previous friends I’ve mentioned.
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I also have a ton a acquaintances who are awesome to hang out with, but I wouldn’t tell my deepest secrets to. I drink with them, do homework with them, and see them a few times a month.

So, true friends are the ones that time together needs no arranging. People who I see a lot and talk to frequently I mark as friends, but they haven’t reached “true” status because I haven’t known them long enough and maintained that relationship long enough. Acquaintances are the people I see to hang out with. I wouldn’t tell them my secrets and I wouldn’t drop by their houses unannounced.
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While these are my personal definitions, I hope they help you. And hopefully, others will share their definitions so that you can form your own! Good luck!

“I had a third close friend w/o kids but I think she was bitter about not having kids and not being married. It was painfully obvious she wanted nothing to do with my kids and wanted to hear nothing about them.”

Okay, I can’t speak to this exact person’s issue, but as a single, happily child-free person, let me offer another perspective: The fact that Third Close Friend isn’t interested in hearing about your kids does *not* automatically mean she’s bitter about not having them. Maybe she isn’t really interested in kids, she doesn’t have them because she doesn’t want them, and she’d rather spend time talking about other things that do interest her.

I have friends with kids and friends without, and I manage to find a way to maintain relationships with both. My with-children friends are usually good about broadening the horizons of the conversation, and I can manage a few minutes of interest in child-related stuff. We muddle through.

What I *hate* — as do many child-free people — is the assumption that we must be bitter about not having children. Don’t force that social norm on me. I made my life the way it is for a reason. How rude of anyone to assume that I’m miserable because I’m not just like them.

I thank you from the bottom of my heart. It is wonderful to know that I’m not alone in this situation. I think part of my problem with the clock is that many women in my family had fertility issues. So I feel like the younger I start the better chance I have. But then I look at myself and realize that I’m just not ready. I just hope the rest of the world (i.e. family) can be OK with my decisions.

12:01: Well, if she’s not bitter than she’s rude as anything. The poster wrote specifically that this particular friend, in contrast to her other child-free friends, pointedly did not ask about her children or bring up her children.

Listen, we ALL have the capacity to bore our friends. It’s not somehow more offensive when the boring subject at hand involves children.

I got temporarily dumped by several dear friends when I had a baby in my late 20s. But once they started their families in their mid 30s, they were clamoring for my perspective. Each dumper had a unique reason - one was skittish about kids in general (and is still a little skittish about her own kid!!) One was secretly dealing with infertility (which has now resolved.) One was, frankly, totally self-absorbed and now blogs constantly about her precious child after having had no time for anyone else’s baby news. Oh well. I have reached an age and a level of busy-ness that all that tension just slides right off. I’ve never been one to talk endlessly about potty training or mashed food and that gets boring fast unless there’s a specific issue that’s being addressed (in my opinion) so it’s nice to have a diverse group of friends who are parents/child-free/childless/ambivalent/etc.

Thank you! Having one of my more sentimental days today. :-)

We’re not really that social in the have-lots-of-acquaintances way. Our friends tend to be close or not at all. A few have chosen not to have kids but are easy to spend time with, likely because they’re happy with their choice (and not facing anything like fertility issues). We especially love those visits because we get to see what the rest of the world (i.e., those who aren’t raising small children) is watching/doing/talking about. It’s always refreshing to step outside yourself and look at things from a new perspective. Plus, they always know the coolest places to go.

I’ve never been the type who needed a large group of friends, just a few really good girlfriends. I have to admit now, that I agree with Anon 11:43 to a certain extent. I don’t really have time for close friendships even though I wish I had them. Between work, kids, and hubby, who has the time to invest in really deep friendships? Any extra time or energy I have I put into my family. That may be setting myself up later down the road for lonliness, but I really don’t think that at this time in my life, making close friendships is a priority for me. Yes, I certainly have “acquaintances” at work and socially. In fact, I’m going out to dinner with some female work acquaintances tonight. But, i don’t feel that any of these women are my best friends (as I remember having in college). And I don’t forsee having the time to develop relationships like that for a long time.

Maybe having children is just a good milestone in learning who your true friends are and who your life-long friends will be. My child-free friends fall along both sides. I have friends who have gone out of their way to come see us and our daughter on multiple occaisions and have chosen to have their Sat. plans revolve around a bbq at our house (and we reciprocate the effort). Others, one in particular, has yet to meet my almost 1-year old daugther, backing out of plans a few times, and gets irritated when I can’t meet on a Fri. for drinks at a moment’s notice. I’ve remained really close to one single, child-free friend through my 6-yr marriage and new-momhood- we both make the effort, and I LOVE hearing about her love-life and late-night antics. Us “old-marrieds” have to do some things vicariously! We both love to travel and have interesting careers to discuss, as well as many shared life-long friends/acquaintances in common, which probably makes things easier as well.

@Grad student life - my two cents - I have about 5 years on you and am unmarried. What you are struggling with is the perception of what you “should” be doing because what you are doing is outside of the norm you see around you. It’s normal and healthy to question and it’s nice to hear you have a dialogue about it with your husband. But when I get the marriage/kids question I have to remind myself that I am making the best decisions I can based on the information I have at the time. Your time will come - good luck.

Interesting thoughts. It is such hard work to try and make friends. And I understand when you say it is not a priority right now. But what about the notion ‘it takes a village to raise a child’? My kids are 2 and 6 and while I could be perfectly content with my husband and kids and the few close friends I have - I feel that since both mine and my husband’s family is a 6 or more hours flight away, it is important to build friendships. Or is a social network of acquaintances enough?

Someone else lives vicariously through her friends!!!! My best friend keeps me completely up to date on all the antics of her single to mingle life and I love it!!!!

12:18: I couldn’t agree more. I had a few old friends who never once came to see me and my new baby and the friendships have definitely faltered in the wake of my having a child. I took that as a sign of the state of our friendship. I didn’t excise these friends from my life or anything, but it was a moment of reckoning, for sure. Conversely, I was astonished by people far more recent in my life who went above and beyond - traveled nearly two hours to my parents’ house for a baby shower, stopped by within weeks of my giving birth with flowers, food, and genuine interest in how things were going.

Thanks!! I think today the whole marriage/children thing is an issue because I just spent all of yesterday with acquaintances who all have children. We were the only child-less couple! While I had a great day, I still felt a little out of place.

I lost a lot of friends once I had kids which was not due to me because I still make an effort, but to them. They just make zero effort now. I feel offended they take no interest in my kid at all (one was the child’s godmother who never took an interest in her after she came along, never called, never made effort to see her and my kid is 17 months now). I also found that other friends who had kids really changed. I don’t feel like I have changed- my friends without kids tell me I haven’t but I have other really close friends that changed so much, I feel I have nothing in common with them anymore as parents.

Sadly, a lot of the people who are our “friends” now are friends just because we have kids the same age. I would never call them if I had a problem. We never discuss anything interesting. My old friends don’t have kids. I am close with half of them as I said, the ones who make an effort to understand my life as I make an effort with them. I really would love to find a happy medium though.

Grad - Didn’t know there was another RIer on the blog, hello neighbor! Anon - While I consider most of the people I hang out/chat in a friendly way with friends, I think it is very important to have what I call “good friends.” My two best friends are like sisters to me, wouldn’t bat an eye if I showed up unannounced and besides my DBF are the first people I would run to with good/bad news. I’m sure these ppl are out there (in the US) for you even if it takes time.

If you live in Providence, then I’m a seriously close neighbor!!
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Thanks to everyone listening to me dominate this blog!

I’m 28 and have friends in every conceivable stage of family life. My friendships with my girlfriends who have kids are different than my friendships with women who don’t have kids right now. That’s totally fine - I see my very good friend with a 4 yr old son less frequently and often during the day - sometimes I’ll drive to CT and run errands with her and maybe get a pedi just to hang out. I don’t expect her to be in the city on a thursday night until 11. She has a family.
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And I’ve never understood why reasonable moms talking about their kids is a boring topic of conversation. Personally, I think most kids do hysterically funny things and I enjoy talking to another good friend who’s raising a bi-ligual son about his linguistic development.

Providence & Grad Student Life: Am I correct in thinking we are all RIers in our mid-twenties? Anyway, to Grad, specifically, I think it is refreshing to hear about someone who takes the responsibility of having children seriously. As other posters have noted, you stil have plenty of time to have a child and since you want children, you will be able to make adjustments over time to accommodate that desire. I think you are wise to make your life child friendly first. Good things come to those who wait.

And I’m with Yoshi. I don’t have kids but I love to hear about the funny, aodrable things they do. And just as my mom-friends enjoy hearing about my “single” life of sleeping in and being spontaneous, I like to live vicariously through friends who have children.

Sounds like we could be friends :) I totally understand your original post. I work full time but am going to get my MBA at night. Anyway, most of my friends are having babies now, in fact, my new hobby is “attending baby showers.” So, the other day my Mom called and when I told her we were thinking about getting another puppy, she asked me, “When are you going to have a real baby?” So the pressure is def there.
I just threw a supposedly “good friend” a baby shower a few months ago. She hasn’t spoken to me once since then. I am sorry, but I just am giving up on “giving” so much to people who just suddenly forget you once the shower has passed, or birth has come. You truly find out who your good friends are at wedding, funerals, and births!

In favor of balance & Providence: I am in my mid twenties. I live in RI and commute half the state for work!
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To In favor of Balance: I’m with you and Yoshi. I laugh at all the kids I know because all they do is say the funniest things! I know I have plenty of time, and it’s weird that this issue is plaguing me lately. It’s not like I’m unhappy and looking for something to make me happy. I think it’s just one of those weeks.
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TO somewhere in CO: I’m thrilled to know someone else is in the “school is my life, please leave a message” mode. And you’re right about friends. I never thought that the people who are still by my side are the ones that would be there. I’m sorry to hear about your friend. That’s not nice at all. I understand about giving up on “giving”. I feel that I’m at every shower conceivable (my new hobby is weddings) and I’ll help friends out whenever I can, but I have to live for me too. And I think it’s awesome that you want a new puppy. Babies come with 4 feet too!

Providence,Grad,In Favor-I am also in RI, but not in my mid-twenties; I had children in my early 20’s and just had one 4 months ago at 39; I would say it’s never too late or too early, whenever you decide to have children, it will be the “right” time.

While I totally believe that some people callously ditch their childless friends after they have kids, I’d be inclined to cut some slack to a friend for whom you threw a baby shower just a few months ago. She’s obviously either very pregnant now or taking care of a newborn (not to mention writing thank you notes for the baby shower; took me weeks). I’m grateful to friends who tolerated unreturned emails/phone calls during that time in my life. She may come around yet.

What happens if you don’t like a friend’s child? When two of our closest friends years ago had their baby, my husband and I stalwartly lined up to help. We babysat for weeks at a time when the nanny was on vacation. We changed diapers, took the baby out to the park in the stroller, read to him, baby proofed our house, and rearranged our schedules so that we could spend time with the parents.

We didn’t mind the work involved because we really do believe that it takes a village to raise a child. We were also determined to be supportive, patient friends.

But babies have a way of growing up and turning into little people, and little people have characters and personalities just as big people do. The baby whom we had taken to the park and sung to turned out to have - well, an unlovely personality. By the time he was eight he was sullen, self involved, and rude. He had a horrible temper. He expected everyone to cater to his whims. He seemed to lack empathy. All of this was worsened by the behavior of his parents. They were bright, creative, imaginative people who lost all perspective when it came to their son. Instead of guiding him toward overcoming his weaknesses, they indulged him. The result was not a little monster, simply an unpleasant child.

We lost the friendship.

I guess I thought a simple “Thanks” or a phone call wouldn’t be so hard to do after someone throws you a shower. She hasn’t had the baby yet, so she isn’t busy doing newborn stuff, I would totally understand that part! Anyway, it is over, maybe she’ll come around after the baby is born, you are probably right. For now I’ll just keep loving her and hope that we can get back to being friends sometime soon.

I’ve often noticed how one only gains true insight into others through how they choose to raise their children.

Mid 20s, living in Providence, had no idea there was so many of us.

It’s easy to fall into the trap of only hanging out with friends who have kids because it’s easier - but god it’s boring. We’ll host gatherings where everyone is invited. We’ll tell people if there are going to be a gaggle of children and they can make their own decisions. From those gatherings I’ve noticed two things: 1.) There are always a few child-free folks who have a great handle on how kids think, kids are drawn to them, and you think silently, “gee, they’d make a great parent” and 2.) Parents whose children are college-age or have already left home have the FUNNIEST stories of what those seemingly perfect now-adult children did as teenagers. I have spit wine out my nose listening to some of those stories! And they don’t blink if a kid pukes or shows up in the kitchen naked. And one last observation about those parents - they’ll tell you to not make the kids the center of your life because they now know for a fact that they aren’t the center of their kids lives.

Our most challenging hurdles are with some of the mothers in our group. Because we are two men, it’s assumed we no nothing about raising an infant. Although some of the suggestions have been extremely helpful, we bite our tongues often when we believe the advice is turning into demands.

Gay Dad - funny, I’m a mother who resents being presumed to know it all about being a parent! Let’s switch places. That must be very frustrating for you, in all seriousness.

That dads know nothing about raising an infant is a common–and of course incorrect–stereotype in our society. Frankly, the only thing I can do that my husband can’t (once the child is born) is breastfeed. I think people, male or female, learn to be parents the way they learn everything else. Practice, practice, practice.

2:16pm: It’s challenging…but part of our reality. I sort of understand the mom’s perspective and know that it’s not me personally…just what how they associate how men in their lives typically performed with their children?…maybe?…just an assumption

Geeze I need spell grammar check when I type these posts..sorry all

To Gay Dad - I hope those moms cut you some slack; I know some men who have a much calmer, less fear-based approach to parenting. You are giving a child the gift of a loving family, and since your child has special needs it’s all the rarer that he found a good home. I wish more people wanted to adopt and that the process was easier for those who do.

New parents change, and it is harder for those of us without kids to really share some of their interests. My husband and I don’t have kids, and have no plans to for another few years. Some of our friends who have had children don’t understand this - they ask us when we’re planning on getting pregnant, and their conversation centers around the latest things their kids have done. We listen, and ask questions, but it is hard to relate - there are only so many stories you can here about Junior’s potty training before you start seeking new topics. The sad thing is that they show no interest in our stories about places we’ve been, non-kid oriented things we’re doing, and so on, so after a while it gets harder to spend time together.

It’s also harder to plan social events - now friends have to find a babysitter or, even if we invite the kids, they want to confirm how baby-proof our place is before bringing them over.

To be honest, we’re grateful for our friends who are new parents but who understand that the kid is just one aspect of their life, not the whole thing. They’re the ones we’re still able to talk to the most.

Personally I don’t think there’s any way to babyproof a house for a new crawler (or walker) except by following the baby around everywhere he goes. Our son put things into his mouth and asked questions later. People with older kids had little action figures and accessories or hair clips and accessories everywhere. That’s a challenging time to socialize. Luckily, like everything else, it’s a phase.

I feel like we should meet for coffee!

About non-kid proofed houses… when we were babies/toddlers, did our parents baby-proof? Not really and we all survived. I’m all for locking the cabinet with the poisons, and making sure all breakable things are out of reach, but it’s hard for me to baby-proof my home. I don’t have children. And most toddlers will find a way to what they want anyway.

I am about to be married, early 30’s and do not particularly like kids. My fiancee and I will likely not have any, unless we have an oopsy. However, we have friends with kids, and we sacrifice the time (and gas money!) to drive to the far-flung suburbs to visit these various couple on Saturday nights and hang out at home so that we can still see our friends. It has been my experience that some friends make this easier than others. One friend will occasionally leave the baby with her husband, come to the city and have a girls’ night at a fabulous new restaurant, perhaps to celebrate achieving pre-pregnancy weight again. However, another very dear friend who had kids early and is an “attachment parent” won’t leave the kids with anyone but hubby (who has many evening busy with his hobbies) or family. This means that she almost never comes to see me. If I want time with her, I must trek out to her. It is frustrating, particularly as she doesn’t ever apologize for the lob-sized nature of our relationship. Usually I try to be understanding. However, I believe that friendships do require extra effort - even if you have two homeschooled “attachment” kids - during the milestones of life. When she married, I took a day off work, drove 3.5 hours, paid for the ugly dress, and went to every function and smiled for every picture. For my wedding, a mere 45 minutes away, I cannot get assurance that she will make it in for the rehearsal (to which I told her that she could bring her kids) or that she will be able to show up 90 minutes ahead of the wedding for the pictures because she isn’t certain that she can arrange childcare for that time. I try to be understanding, but at some point, I feel like such a low priority, that it can be difficult to remain her friends!

Yuck! That sounds frustrating, I wonder if this is a case of friends who are now parents or friends who were always self-centered?

Very interesting topic. There is a real social gulf between parents and non-parents; and I am pleased to see this topic addressed.

I have no children, and I have certainly lost touch with most of my friends who have become parents.

From my point of view, there is one overriding factor which causes this drifting apart: the subject matter that the friend (the parent) tends to choose for conversation. Bluntly put, those who inject their kids into every conversation are extremely wearying.

Although I am childfree, I like children. However, I don’t like discussing other people’s children with them. The issue here is a very simple one: I don’t have the chance to hang out very much at all with anyone anymore; therefore, the precious conversation time (when a “hang” somehow does actually occur) is extremely valuable — too valuable to use on that topic.

I have one friend who totally understands this. This is a guy whom I used to see every day back in high school; now we see each other once or twice a year.

Despite the fact that I like his children, you can bet that not once during our rare hangout time, will I ask “So, how are your kids?” Nor will he launch into that topic unbidden. Instead, we talk about, you know, INTERESTING things — just as we have done during the past 30 years.

(Now, I will have to admit that, if this particular friend and I were to resume hanging out every day, as we did in high school, then the conversation would surely tend to turn more frequently to the subject of his kids. But, as it is, there are about 10,000 other things we can talk about in our limited time together; so, in practice, we’ll never get around to talking about the subject of his kids.)

Sadly, this guy is a rarity. Most people with children operate with a total lack of this sort of self-awareness when they are around non-parents. My unfortunate experience has been that parents seem to think that it is perfectly polite to consistently offer references to their children’s lives, unasked, in conversations on ANY subject. These are the insufferable people who answer the question “What’s happening with you?” with “Well, my son/daughter just…” Oy.

I am grateful at least that this one friend of mine does not practice this kind of oblivious rudeness, and that he still has the capacity to hold normal conversations!

Furthermore, the fact that this guy and I have retained our previously-established conversational pattern is emotionally beneficial for both of us. Clearly the benefit for me is that I get to keep my old friend in a recognisable form. And the benefit for him is that he gets to keep HIMSELF in a recognisable form — he gets a space (i.e., the “hang” with me) where he is still his basic self, where he is a person in his own right, and not solely “X’s father.” (Staves off the madness, doncha know.)

What bothers me are the parents who believe that having children somehow instills their lives with greater significance and meaning than mine. How could my life have true meaning when I’m not “rearing the next generation”? I make a point to inquire about their kids’ milestones, birthday parties, soccer games, etc., but they seem at a loss concerning my life.

“parents who believe that having children somehow instills their lives with greater significance and meaning” I believe this but not more or less than your life.

I think it basically comes down to the nature of the “friends” involved, both sides of the story. Being married or single, with children or not, in school or working . . . all of it can be worked around as needed. Plus I have found actual ages to be irrevalent to key friendships. None of our friends in our age-bracket have any kids, and we are about to have our second. Very few of our friends are even planning on getting married, and one of them is actually a few years younger than us. We have much, much older friends whose kids are already out of the house, closer in age to us than the parents are, but still, good friends to hang out with time-permitting. It’s not just the milestone itself that defines who your friends can and should be, but how people relate despite them. Just because I am married with almost 2 little ones doesn’t mean I don’t want to have a night out with the girls. And frankly, I like the occasional break from having to be Mommy and talking about more than my child’s latest accomplishment. My friends ask about my life, I give appropriately short answers, and reciprocate the interest.

In fact, Grad Student, I have a good friend as well as one of my little sisters in much the same situation as you - they voice their concern about being “behind” by not being married or having kids yet and use me as an example of what “should” happen. Just because my life happened to work the way it did does not mean anyone else’s should too. I am completely against all those crazy people who pressure others to get married or have babies . . . you’ll never be 100% ready, but it’s absolutely horrible for all involved to take any of those steps before you want to. Take your time!! I understand your concerns about your fertility, but you will be better equipped to deal with those issues once you have laid the ground-work for your life by completing grad school. Do you really want to add that stress to the stress of school??

I don’t mind the opinions, advice and s